AVID LIQUID7 and Liquid's future

8-31-06 - just a quick note - Tim Wilson, one of our great (Liquid Edition's) supporters has left Avid and moved to Creative Cow's print magazine.  Tim was a great supporter and backer of Liquid and while we will miss his presence at Liquid Immersion and his backing and support at Avid, we wish him well at Creative Cow.  Thanks Tim for all your support and good luck on your new adventure.

8-20-06 - I would buy Liquid 7.1 if I were buying a new editing system today (over Premier Pro II, Vegas, Edius, and even Avid Express Pro)  - but I would make sure I have the horsepower to run it properly. 

That being said - UPGRADING is still an issue I am struggling with and have NOT done yet.  I am still shooting SD - and will be for a while. And why am I still shooting SD ?  First I don't want to spend the money yet on an HD camera when we are still dealing with first generation HD cameras.  I will wait for the newer, improved model that shoots better in low light.  Next, I don't think there is a reasonably priced editing system that can edit many layers of HD - and I like to edit using many layers.   From the grapevine - Liquid 7.1 with SP1 running on a dual Xeon system with lots of mem and a great video card  is bogging down after a couple of layers with effects.  I don't need that.  SO I WILL WAIT for my HD camera - since I really can't edit HD with my present system - a 3.2 gig hyper threaded P4.  And I am not sure I could even with a new system.

And interesting enough, of 24 Liquid power users who attended Liquid Immersion 2005 in Laguna Hills California almost a year ago and who responded to the recent survey, 50% of the non-beta testers attendees had upgraded to Liquid 7. Interesting, of the 50% who did upgrade. 90% are using Liquid 7 exclusively.   What surprises me about that relates to the DVD issues I read about on the Avid board - via the board it sounds like DVD production is an issue - but via the power users of Liquid Immersion 2005 - either no one is making DVD's or the DVD issues as reflected on the Board may be isolated to certain users and their machines.

Now with all that being said - I just read a review that compared Liquid 7.1 SP1 with PPII running with a Matrox card - and the comment was that if you are doing HD - spend the extra bucks and get the Martrox card with PPII - much better HD editing than Liquid can provide.  Me - I would rather stick with 6.1 and not worry about HD. Who owns any of those HD dvd players anyway ?

One advantage of one of those HD cameras - you can shoot HD, downconvert to SD - and have better looking footage than SD straight out - at least that is what I have heard.

Off to another tangent - WHERE IS TIM WILSON ????   In June he hosts a web cast of Liquid 7.1 - promises that he will publish all questions and ANSWERS that were submitted to the web cast - and since then has virtually been unheard from.  My guess - Tim is on his way out of AVID (if not already gone)  and we are going to lose a great Liquid supporter and spokesperson.  Tim is marketing manager for both Liquid and Express Pro - and has been 100% behind Liquid.

No word either from Jim Thill for quite some time - and one has to ask "Why is that ?".  Seemed like Jim and Tim were pretty much together on supporting Liquid.

OK - one old speculation is starting to come back - LIQUID software may be running into some conflict with AVID big wigs - going way back to my original speculation - Liquid is too powerful and too much of a competitor to Avid Express Pro that the two can not exist in the AVID line.  Several reasons why I am bringing this back to life.  The TIM WILSON deal - where is he.  The fact that 7.2 was just being touted on the Liquid Board as just about ready to be released over a month ago - and then suddenly complete SILENCE.  Not a word about it.  Maybe Lew is right - Avid will take the best out of both and come up with a combined product - but if that happens you can rest assured the price will not be $495 - as is Liquid's current street price. If that happens - be sure to buy that first upgrade - cause that will be the best deal you will ever see.  Or maybe Liquid will just disappear from the AVID line. Still a possibility in my books.

7-13-06 - If I was buying a new brand new editing system today,  it definitely would be Avid Liquid 7.1 (with SP1). I would get the Pro version.

Upgrading for owners of  6.1 is somewhat a different question.  The end of June came and we passed on the Big Splash promo.  That was a tough decision.  7.1 (with SP1)  is looking pretty solid from conversations on the board  - but still hard to tell if the issues are individual,  system  or the software- but they sure seems more machine related than anything. No talk lately of SP2 for 7.1 - even though there was strong talk about it soon after SP1 for 7.1 was released. Wonder why it got so quiet ? I don't think Avid liked seeing the talk about another service pack so quickly. So they may have told the moderators to hush a bit. Just my guess.

Definitely it has been said that development work is continuing on Liquid - so we are assuming there will be a Liquid 8 at some point.  Will it be as early as this November ?  That has been the history for the releases of 5.5, 6 and 7.   Liquid 5.5 came out around October of 2003.  Liquid 6 was released near November of 2004.  Liquid 7 was released around November of 2005.

6-9-06  First of all let me say I am a 100% supporter of Liquid - it is my editing system of choice. I love it. You will note that I have not upgraded to Liquid 7 or any of it's updates..  That's not because I don't support Liquid - it is because I have been through numerous installs of initial major upgrades of software (many more than just Liquid) and know that most often the process reveals that there are always issues that were not identified before the new release goes out - and that waiting for a dot upgrade saves a lot of headache.   Thanks go out to those who are beta testers and initial upgrades purchasers - I just don't want that headache. Not on my dime anyway. That's why beta testers get free software.

That all being said - now onto what I hear and interpret as what is going on with Liquid 7.

Liquid 7.1 SP1 is out and we are hearing that Liquid 7.1 SP2 to fix some important issues will soon be out -  and just today I heard talk about Liquid 7.2 on the way.  Big Splash promo is on till the end of June - if you upgrade you will get Magic Bullet filters and Hollywood Effects Pro and Title Deko Pro. Magic Bullet makes your video look a bit different (basically applies a tint to the video) and something I would not normally buy. I hear it takes a long time to render (which makes sense - it's doing the whole video).  Hollywood Effects Pro and Title Deko Pro are very nice - but something I have had since version 5.5.   So the Big Splash is not a high ticket draw for me personally.

Have heard the commotion filters are great - but also require a long time rendering.  Still hearing about DVD and capture issues - those two things alone make me suck in air and wonder why go through the brain damage when 6.1 is still running solid and I still don't have an HD camera nor need to do HD.

So I am still sticking with 6.1 and waiting for better reports on the updates of 7.1.  Although integrated Smart Sound sounds great and I would like to try it - guess I will have to stick with Sonic Fire Pro standalone.  Very doable right now.

One thing I do have to say is Avid is really trying to get this right - which of course they should do. But we are definitely seeing support from Avid.  And the Big Splash campaign is running across the US right now.  That's why the promo of Magic Bullet and HFX Pro and TD Pro.   Sure wish a Splash was coming to Denver - can't figure out why Avid is shunning our area - but going to places like Davenport Iowa.  Davenport Iowa - 60,000 people.  Denver Colorado - 2 + million people. Go figure.  Maybe Tim Wilson decided we are too negative here. If so - bad decision - and I am surprised.

I am sure all the issues are as frustrating for Avid as it is for the users who keep running into issues. One thing I feel for sure - Avid will keep going till things are right and the product is the hottest and best on the market - in it's intended target purchasers - non-broadcast event videographers.

5-5-06  Liquid 7.1 is out (Link to download) and we are anxiously awaiting feedback from the Avid Liquid Forum - good reports will bring upgrade purchases - reported problems and issues will cause us to wait. Stay tuned - or as the movie says - TUNE IN TOMORROW ! 

3-7-06
Just a quick note - SP2 for Liquid 7 has been released (SP1 seemed somewhat of a embarrassment by Avid - although they did try to respond quickly to some issues - it just seemed to create more issues than it solved)- but we are still seeing complaints about bugs (minor and major) and the overall message from seasoned users seems to be to wait for Liquid 7.1, which should be pretty solid - and out sometime in the next several months.  That's what this camper happens to be doing.  Even have talked to some pretty heavy power users who are indicating that unless you are into HD editing - waiting for Liquid 8 is making sense to them - which I can understand - as long as you have Liquid 6.1 up and running.   7 really just added the Avid name to Liquid (which needed to be done)- brought in Smart Sound integration (which makes little difference if you were already using Sonic Fire Pro), and brought in some Commotion filters - which we really haven't heard too much about one way or the other.  Maybe a bit more efficiency the rendering engine - but again, not that much of an improvement of 6.1  Liquid 8 should add some beef to the titler, bring in motion tracking hopefully, and some more efficiencies to the editing process - and who knows what other pleasant surprises it will bring.

12-24-95
Liquid 7 has been out for a several weeks now  (gee - that's not very long) . Perhaps the true test of AVID support will be shown as a FEW SIGNIFICANT BUGS show up - like Smart Sound integration, capture and export issues (including the ability to export an elemetary stream) - gets exposed and worked out.  If AVID gets them fixed quickly - there will be a lot of happy campers.  So far - some pretty grumpy campers are showing up.

Seems like there are two camps. The "wait for release 1.1" guys and gals and the "plunge in and be somewhat of a beta tester" gurus. The Plunge In gurus seem to be pretty happy - as long as they create new projects and don't try to import old ones (seems like that is a big mistake right now) - but even some of them are not happy  and are starting to express their disappointment.

Me - I am still reading the forums - cause I still LOVE my version 6.1.  I own my own version of Smart Sound - and I don't do HD (nor do I have the machine to do it right ! ).   I would love to see what those commotion filters do.  I am keeping on reading and not parting with my $199 quite yet.

But I bet I know a couple of people who are glad right now that they are Avid Liquid 7 guys and not Studio 10 product guys !

11-14-05
If I haven't totally said it yet - I will say it now - actually SHOUT it now.  I WAS WRONG.  The Avid buyout of Pinnacle looks and feels like an incredible PLUS for the Liquid community.  And I will tell you why.  There are three people (at least) behind Liquid at Avid - Tim Wilson - Senior Product Marketing Manager, Jim Thill - Liquid Product Manager  and David Krall - Aivd CEO.  They LIKE Liquid.  They see it as a fit in the product line -  below Avid Express Pro - above Studio - and actually Sudio is staying under the Pinnacle name - at least right now.  So we have beginners on Pinnacle Studio - which now with version 10 takes a much more powerful machine than ever before. Then the prosumer/event/corporate videographer - on Avid Liquid. And then the big buck film and broadcast guys on Xpress Pro (with Mojo and all the other upgradeables).  That's "kind of" the product line - with a few other variations thrown into the mix.

The very good news is that LIQUID support is there inside of AVID. They have recognized it as a great product with even more potential.  I believe it will continue to be developed - and yes - 24P will get added to it - probably sometime soon and hopefully as a version UPDATE.  Title Deko will become a bit more modern - or be replaced (my guess would be in version 8 - which also will contain a bit more powerful DVD authoring tool, motion tracking - maybe even more easily workable garbage matting, along with a few more media management tools).

Avid knows how to market and support it's products.  That is great news.  We are seeing it first hand - even this early after the merger.

Now of course I am saying all of the above - not Avid. But it makes sense. I have to say all of the above is based on one-on-one talks with some pretty supportive people. As long as they are our eyes and ears and mouth into this Video Editing product community - we are going to be well represented - be kept informed - and have an opportunity to voice our concerns, comments and suggestions for improvements.  These guys supporting Liquid know video editing.  They like the product and are behind us.

I am still not seeing where Avid Express DV fits into the picture - same price as Avid Liquid - less powerful. But I don't know if I care. I will go out on the limb and say having the liquid engine in Studio seems very strange. This requires a huge base of Studio users to upgrade their equipment. It's a powerful lower end product aimed at the masses of "home" users.   If they have to upgrade their equipment, maybe the thought is that they will move on to Liquid - which is a bit more expensive and could be a real cash cow for Avid.  But I would think that Avid might find the lower end people either sticking with prior versions that don't require the upgrade of equipment - or see them moving over to some of the other low priced editing software that still works on their old equipment.  Just a thought and it really doesn't matter to me - cause LIQUID is ALIVE !

By the way - what brought out this new confidence level in this product  you ask ?  That would be Liquid Immersion 2005 that recently completed in Laguna Hills, California.  Too bad if you missed it - I would try not to miss the next one if you can help it ! A lot of fun, great contacts, lots of sharing of ideas, concepts, things that work. Truly a great event.  And the first one's admission cost was $100.  Pretty hard to beat that - even if you had to pay another $400 or so for air and hotel. A very cool event.

11-3-05
Well - Avid Liquid 7 is out (or will be out by the end of November)  and guys such as Tim Wilson, Senior Product Marketing Manager, Avid Technology are speaking publicly that they are very excited about Avid Liquid and that there is going to be a Liquid 8.  So .... looks like I will be eating my words. Before I get out the ketchup - I will just sheepishly remain silent for a bit and see what develops..

10-24-05
Just got another perspective - from Bruce Marshall – Manager of Production Operations, Comcast Media Center. I was talking with him at an event and although he did say that Comcast has a Liquid machine amongst their many Avid suites, he said in no uncertain terms - "Liquid is Dead".  Bruce was on a recent panel with and presided by David Krall, CEO of AVID at the Denver Video Expo.  Hmmmm - what does he know that we don't ???. 

10-14-05
I am starting to get that feeling that maybe I was wrong.  Why ?  Well, Gary Bettam, owner of Videoguy.com, left a message on the Avid Liquid Board saying the following:
 

Now that may not be right out of Avid's shop, I think Gary is pretty up on this stuff - so it is indeed very helpful.  We'll see - I will hang in there cause I know a 7 will be released - it's that part about Xpress not performing in the market place like Liquid might  - and I happen to agree with them on that.  So maybe they are thinking like I am - I just didn't know they would consider xing out Xpress - it would be the perfect move - and thus - very good news.  I'm staying tuned.  But the deal is he is talking about Xpress DV - Liquid is more along the line of Xpress Pro - thus my hesitation in getting too excited.

10-1-05
Attended Vid-Expo in Denver.  David Krall - CEO of AVID, was featured speaker. He talked about the development and future of HD.   I did get a chance to ask him personally and up close what the future of liquid might be. He said that he thought Liquid filled a nitch for Avid - that being the independent (and smaller) producer working on stand-alone (and networked) machines. He sounded very postive towards Liquid - but that was really the extent of his comments on Liquid - other guys had things they wanted to ask. But I will say he seems like an incredibly nice person, was very knowledgeable and involved, and I think he is a good asset for us Liquid people. (Now watch him kill Liquid and I have to eat my words !     Oh well !)

I am hearing rumors that Liquid 7 will be released soon (within a year ago of the release of Liquid 6 - which was within a year of Liquid 5.5).  Personally I think they are pushing it - what can they really add to 6.1 that deserves a full number release increase ?  Better be good !

Patrick McLean from Avid talked to the  NEPLUG  (New England Pinnacle Liquid User Group) mid September (Link to WebBoard comments). Patrick has reaffirmed Avid's commitment to Liquid and state there will be a new version coming out (though he wouldn't say when or what would be included) and said that  Liquid is being positioned as Avid's NLE of choice for the non-broadcast professional market; so the target audience is advanced hobbyists, event and corporate videographers, and small-scale broadcasters.

Read NEPLUG's summary of Patrick McLean's comments here.

So - all that being said -  I still feel maybe Avid is smart enough to spin it's comments towards liquid users instead of antagonizing them. Sounds like it would be the strategy I would use if I was avid.

Even after all this good news - I am sticking with my prediction that Liquid is going to meet it's demise in the hands of AVID. Just being stubborn - but the issue that always comes back is how can AVID support a product that sells for $500 and competes with it's $1500-$2500 product ?

I still have the same feeling I initially had back when I heard Avid was buying Pinnacle - Liquid is too powerful and too reasonably priced of a competitor to Avid Xpress Pro - they have to kill it off.  Upping it's price does not make that much sense.  Stealing it's code and one click away and auto-save features makes some sense - but using it's interface to replace Xpress pro makes no sense - too many express pro users out there that would complain.   Maybe a dual interface for Xpress Pro - like Liquid's Classic view vs. the new windows view.  Seems like a lot of work for a few users to me. And then we would still be paying the Xpress Pro prices.

Here's my guess right now - Avid will appease current Liquid users with a 7.0 version - then offer a steep discount to get the Liquid users to move over to Xpress Pro. A 2 year plan.  

Maybe Avid won't kill off Liquid - I hope not - but all I say right now is thank you Pinnacle for Liquid 6.1.

Time will tell - perhaps we are getting closer.

8-09-05
Nothing heard one way or the other yet !  Merger has been completed.  No word from Avid or Pinnacle.

6-1-05  (date I made the predicition)

On 3-18-05 it was announced that Avid was buying Pinnacle - to happen in late  2005 (3rd quarter ?)- Avid buys Pinnacle cause Pinnacle has a large user base with Studio and Avid wants to penetrate that market.   Now Avid will have large user base in the lower end video editing market.  Nice way to move people up to higher end AVID products.   What about Liquid ?

Let's take a look at the market and pricing: for entry level professional editing systems - see chart below.   Now some may argue that Liquid 6.1 and Avid Express Pro HD and not comparables - but from all I have read and all I have talked to - they are very comparable as far as capabilities, features and flaws - and I am sticky with that. Not my opinion as I own no Avid software - just my summary of other fairly knowledgeable users familiar with both systems.  In fact, recently, an article in Videography gave the leading edge to Liquid. 

After looking at all that and seeing that Liquid Pro 6.1 at $999 is very similar in power to Avid Express Pro HD MOJO at $2495 - or seeing that Liquid at $499 is about the same as Avid Express Pro HD at $1595 (or even Avid Express Pro at $1295)  -  what do you think AVID will do with LIQUID ???

Bye Bye Liquid.

Just let's hope AVID will give Liquid upgraders a break on it's high prices.  Hopefully. I think Avid would rather win over the Liquid users than lose us to Adobe or Sony - or even Final Cut Pro (my - who is going to give up their PC for a MAC ?? - not me)..

Of course this is just my opinion.  Liquid is the best deal out there - best editing system with best features (DVD authoring excepted - very good - but not "the best")  But liquid has great real time effects, Color Correction, and a very nice interface and one click away shortcuts.  It is being sold too cheap and Avid may strip it of it's engine or Color Correction  - but definitely will dump it    There won't be a Liquid 7 or an AVID Liquid 7.   So enjoy Liquid 6 while it is still on top of the heap.  We probably have a couple years of good editing left before having to upgrade to Avid or Adobe or Sony. I doubt if the bugs (they are not that bad) in Liquid 6.1 will disappear or be fixed.

But thanks Pinnacle.  At least you gave us a good product to enjoy for a while at a very reasonable price.

But then again, maybe AVID will want to compete a bit more on the level of VEGAS or PERMIERE PRO.  There is still hope !

author: Dave Messinger